> RBM wrote:
>>> RBM wrote:
>>>> The last machine I put together was built around an Asus P5AD2E board,
>>>> so It's been a while. I'd like to build a fairly basic, durable
>>>> machine, that will play recent games decently, and frankly, at this
>>>> point I'm clueless. It would be much appreciated if someone can point
>>>> me to a decent quality Intel based ATX board, cpu, ram, and NVIDIA
>>>> based graphics card that are compatible, decent for gaming, and won't
>>>> break the bank.
>>>>
>>>> TIA, Roy
>>> Well, you know that Intel has the high end. And you can see where AMD
>>> leaves
>>> off and Intel takes over, by using a benchmark chart of some sort.
>>>
>>>
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/2009-desktop-cpu-charts/Left-4-Dead-1.0.0.5,1403.html
>>>
>>> The "green colored candidates" stop with the AMD Phenom II X4 965 (Deneb
>>> 4c)
>>> at 3.4GHz.
>>>
>>> Intel high end, include LGA775 (duals/quads), Core i7, Core i5.
>>>
>>> So that leaves you with perhaps four platform choices.
>>>
>>> 1) AM2/AM2+/AM3 motherboard with the fastest processor they make. And
>>> a power supply and motherboard that can handle the 140W peak power.
>>> Idle power will be a lot lower.
>>>
>>> 2) LGA775. You already have one of those. Check the CPU charts for your
>>> motherboard, to see what (more expensive) processors fit into it.
>>>
>>> 3) Core i7 and perhaps a 920. Room to overclock. Memory controller
>>> integrated into the processor, like AMD does it. Core i7 is
>>> triple channel DDR3 memory. Socket is LGA1366.
>>>
>>> 4) Core i5 / LGA 1156. Memory controller is integrated, but is dual
>>> channel.
>>> Socket has fewer pins, and is LGA1156. PCI Express slot interface is
>>> provided on the CPU as well. Sockets have had problems in a few
>>> instances.
>>> If you're an overclocker, read this.
>>>
>>> "P55 socket problems"
>>> http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3661
>>>
>>> That is a basic overview. It should give you some point to start your
>>> comparison.
>>>
>>> LGA1366 and LGA1156 block diagrams are here. LGA1366 takes Core i7.
>>> LGA1156 takes things branded as Core i5 and Core i7, but I don't
>>> understand
>>> the distinction in that case. (Maybe a Wikipedia article will straighten
>>> out the difference.)
>>>
>>> http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=3570
>>>
>>> LGA1366 has a two chip chipset. Memory controller on the processor.
>>>
>>> http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/cpu/intel/lynnfield/x58.jpg
>>>
>>> LGA1156 has a one chip chipset (a Southbridge). Memory controller and
>>> PCI Express on the processor itself. Notice, that this design choice
>>> doesn't leave room for much innovation by parties other than Intel,
>>> and is getting pretty close to being a SOC solution (System On a Chip).
>>> The more stuff dedicated to the processor, the less screwing around
>>> a chipset maker can do. It is pretty hard to differentiate a chipset,
>>> if it has nothing on it :-) What is really surprising, is that it
>>> took this long for the idea to crystallize at Intel. Note also,
>>> that since a 2GB/sec DMI is the only bus extension on the bottom
>>> of the LGA1156 processor, you can't even connect a custom third party
>>> high
>>> bandwidth device and add stuff (not in the same way that LGA1366 and
>>> QPI,
>>> could potentially allow a third party high bandwidth addition).
>>>
>>> http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/cpu/intel/nehalem/part3/lynnfield.png
>>>
>>> Since Intel has lots of experience now with Southbridges, it wouldn't
>>> take much of a stretch to suck that inside the processor too. If only
>>> the socket to handle that, wasn't so expensive. Of course, it would
>>> not prevent an innovation-free motherboard industry from just soldering
>>> such a high contact count CPU concept, right to the motherboard. You can
>>> see
>>> where this idea is headed (commodity toasters = no fun).
>>>
>>> Paul
>>
>> Paul, thanks for your, as usual, over the top helpful reply. The machine
>> I have with the LGA775 is actually running the desired games, etc. fine,
>> I need to build replacements for the 4 machines I put together prior to
>> that one, which all have socket 478 boards. When I went to Newegg to put
>> together new equipment, I was overwhelmed by the new sockets and
>> processors. I'm not very technical, I've just been lucky so far.I'm
>> looking to use whatever socket is the most mainstream, and not something
>> that has already become obsolete, and I just don't realize it. If LGA775
>> is still mainstream, can you recommend a durable board, processor, ram,
>> and Intel graphics card that will run current games well
>>
>> Thanks, Roy
> I'd recommend pricing out the options, which is something I haven't tried
> in
> a while. My last upgrade was an LGA775 with DDR2 RAM, for economy. But you
> could also put an AMD system together along the same lines.
> There are too many boards to offer just one solution. Try the Newegg
> search engine,
> then sort by reputation. There are price ranges for boards as well, and a
> sort
> of minimum price for something decent, in each socket type.
> For example, bring up the list of LGA775, then sort by rating. Then take
> a look through it, for the first $130-150 board with a good rep. Then read
> the individual customer reviews.
>
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010200280%201070509908&bop=And&ActiveSearchResult=True&Order=RATING
> GA-EP45-UD3P LGA 775 Intel P45 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128358
> P45 has a single PCI Express interface, and relies on four
> external chips, to give some flexibility in providing two
> video card slots. The four external chips take the place of
> a paddle card used on previous boards.
> Gigabyte has various versions of Ultra Durable, with solid polymer
> caps. You want to understand what parts of the board have the solid
> polymer caps, to see whether you're getting value for money. So part
> of the shopping experience with them, is understanding their
> naming scheme. A lot of boards have the polymer caps, but the
> unscrupulous cap makers have now resorted to making electrolytics
> that look like solid caps. If the cap has the pressure relief
> lines cut in the top, it is a wet electrolyte cap (old kind).
> Another example. Always check the reviews to see whether the build
> is an easy one or not.
> P5Q Deluxe LGA 775 Intel P45 Intel Motherboard - Retail
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131297
> On some of them, the slot layout is miserable, so you want to
> study where your video card is going to go, and how much
> clearance there is for other plugin cards. You might want
> room for your old PCI sound card for example. I keep moving
> my sound card from system to system.
> http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/13-131-297-S03? $S640W$
> You can find cheap LGA775 motherboards. This is what I bought,
> because I'm on a budget. This wouldn't be good enough for a
> gaming machine, due to its 4X wired PCI Express slot. But I can still
> type on it :-) This board gave me lots of "old school". I
> ended up having to do a couple mods to it, because the BIOS
> doesn't work as well as it should (no practical overclock
> via the BIOS). This one is also limited to FSB1066 processors.
> On a lighter note, this one runs Win98SE, something you can't do
> with just any motherboard.
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157115
> AMD probably gives you a cheaper overall build, but if later
> you're looking for a big increase in compute power, you might
> easily already be using the fastest thing they've got.
> I'd say LGA775 is pretty near the end of its life. I haven't
> heard a wind-down plan for LGA775, but the fact that the
> LGA1156 was recently introduced, probably means it is there
> to replace the LGA775. LGA775 is mature, so enjoy the pricing
> on a mature technology.
> There is probably a little too much choice out there, to
> make this decision easy. I'm sure some of the businesses
> regret the amount of inventory they're carrying right now.
> Paul
Thanks Paul, there is a lot of choice, and as much as I'm more comfortable
with an LGA775, because I've been there before, I'd rather not build
something close to obsolescent. From what you're telling me, it sounds like
the LGA1156 will become the most mainstream Intel socket, so I'll go that
route. I'm looking at an MSI P55-GD80 board and i7-860 cpu as both have
really good reviews. I'll piece the whole system together, then scrutinize
each part until I'm comfortable.
RBM wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Paul, there is a lot of choice, and as much as I'm more comfortable
> with an LGA775, because I've been there before, I'd rather not build
> something close to obsolescent. From what you're telling me, it sounds like
> the LGA1156 will become the most mainstream Intel socket, so I'll go that
> route. I'm looking at an MSI P55-GD80 board and i7-860 cpu as both have
> really good reviews. I'll piece the whole system together, then scrutinize
> each part until I'm comfortable.
>
Have you looked at the LGA1156 article here ? I see in one
picture of the P55-MD80, it uses a Foxconn LGA1156 socket.
"P55 socket problems"
http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3661
Wow, the P55-GD80 is $210. Seems to have a pretty generous Vcore.
Lots of phases.
I see it has a six pin "thing" for probing with a multimeter.
A place to stick a multimeter tip, without it sliding off.
I guess that is for measuring voltages other than the ones on
the hardware monitor. I couldn't figure out at first, why there
was some kind of 1x6 over near the main power connector. But that
is what the manual says it is.
It also has a POST display (two digit) for monitoring the POST
sequence of the BIOS. Cheaper than having to install a $25 PCI
POST card when the machine won't start.
Six of the SATA connectors are side mount. One review claims
that is so they don't clash with the video card. Some people
don't like side mount ports.
One reason I downloaded the MSI manual, was to check the PCI Express config.
http://download2.msi.com/files/downloads/mnu_exe/E7581v1.0.zip
One Two
Video Video
PCI_E2 ---- x16 x8
PCI_E4 ---- x0 x8
PCI_E5 ---- x4 x4
The implication is, there must be the four chip PCI Express routing
logic on the board somewhere. As I don't think the processor supports
bifurcation on its own. The processor has a x16 interface, that can
be split in two as x8/x8. Now, without external logic, the only wiring
config it would have, is the right-most column. To be able to support
both columns of that table, it would need some chips external to the
PCI Express interface provided by Intel. The P45 chipset motherboards
for LGA775 use the external chip scheme for steering the lanes. The
reason they do this, is so they don't have to put an extra x8 of
lanes on the big chips.
Problem is, I can't identify the steering chips. It is possible they're
using one bigger add-on chip, instead of the four smaller steering chips.
Perhaps the bigger one has an overall lower cost. It could be hiding
under a heatsink.
If you install a single, high power video card in E2, you'll get a x16
at 500MB/sec PCI Express revision 2.0 connection. That is 8GB per second,
and since the PCI Express slot is connected to the processor, which also
has the system memory, the only bottleneck is the speed of the memory
itself. They should have plenty of room for a high bandwidth connection
inside the processor.
If you did use two video cards in E2 and E4, they'd be getting 4GB/sec
max each.
The E5 slot (don't know how they're counting these, I'm just going by
the labels in the manual) would be connected to the Southbridge. They
say it is x4 wired, but the bus bandwidth would come through the DMI
connected to the processor. Your SATA drives would share bandwidth with the
E5 slot. Again, not a big deal, but just to show how that one is connected.
And that is why I like Gigabyte user manuals. They have an architecture
diagram, that makes this guessing game easier :-) Gigabyte still chooses
to obfuscate their diagram, but having some diagram to work with, saves
time when checking out the design.
Note that there are two heatsinks on the board, as if the board has
a Northbridge and Southbridge. But there is only one chip in the
chipset. That means the coolers are cooling a Southbridge and ???.
The ??? could be the PCI Express x8 switch logic or something else.
The heatpipe assembly on that board, seems to be fastened with
rivets. If you ever feel the need to remove it, that will be
a significant issue.
This review doesn't go into architecture. And I bet the rivets
prevent reviewers from getting too curious about what is underneath.
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article/2009/09/08/msi_p55gd80_motherboard_review/6
The article here, says one of the heatpipe heatsinks doesn't cool a chip.
Somehow, I don't believe that. I think they're hiding stuff under there.
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/852
"No floppy disk drive controller is present."
OK, if I look at a picture of the P55 block diagram, it does have
more PCI Express lanes, but you can see that the DMI is a bottleneck
to using all of them flat out at the same time. The x8 worth of
subtending ports are PCIE Revision 2 at 500MB/sec. That is 4GB/sec
max worth of wiring, that can't be supported by 1GB/sec worth of DMI.
The four things connected to x1 ports in my diagram below, would likely
use PCI Express revision 1, so that is 250MB/sec max. A video card
plugged into PCI_E5 could attempt to run at 4x500MB/sec, but be
bottlenecked back to whatever is left of the DMI bandwidth at any
given time. (The PCI Express does transfers when it can, so none of
that actually causes a failure. It just means that there could be
bandwidth peaks, where occasionally the DMI is pretty busy.)
http://i.afterdawn.com/storage/pictures/intel_p55_chipset_diagram.gif
x8
----- x8 PCIE R2.0 ------------- PCI_E2 slot x16 x8
/
/ x8
Memory ---- CPU ----- x8 PCIE R2.0 --- switch
| ??? \ x8
| \
| PCI_E4 slot x0 x8
|
|
| DMI (1GB/sec up, 1GB/sec down - see Core i5 datasheet)
|
6*SATA ---- P55 ----- X4 ----- PCI_E5
PCI ---- (SB) ----- X1 ----- VT6315 Firewire
----- X1 ----- JMB363 ------------------------ ESATA
----- X1 ----- RTL8112DL --- Ethernet --- JMB322 ---
2*SATA
----- X1 ----- RTL8112DL --- Ethernet --- IDE
One of the JMB363 SATA ports seems to connect to the JMB322, and the
JMB322 makes two ports out of one port. The JMB322 ports are
likely the vertical ones on the motherboard.
Loads of fun.
Paul
> RBM wrote:
>>
>>
>> Thanks Paul, there is a lot of choice, and as much as I'm more
>> comfortable with an LGA775, because I've been there before, I'd rather
>> not build something close to obsolescent. From what you're telling me, it
>> sounds like the LGA1156 will become the most mainstream Intel socket, so
>> I'll go that route. I'm looking at an MSI P55-GD80 board and i7-860 cpu
>> as both have really good reviews. I'll piece the whole system together,
>> then scrutinize each part until I'm comfortable.
>>
> Have you looked at the LGA1156 article here ? I see in one
> picture of the P55-MD80, it uses a Foxconn LGA1156 socket.
> "P55 socket problems"
> http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3661
> Wow, the P55-GD80 is $210. Seems to have a pretty generous Vcore.
> Lots of phases.
> I see it has a six pin "thing" for probing with a multimeter.
> A place to stick a multimeter tip, without it sliding off.
> I guess that is for measuring voltages other than the ones on
> the hardware monitor. I couldn't figure out at first, why there
> was some kind of 1x6 over near the main power connector. But that
> is what the manual says it is.
> It also has a POST display (two digit) for monitoring the POST
> sequence of the BIOS. Cheaper than having to install a $25 PCI
> POST card when the machine won't start.
> Six of the SATA connectors are side mount. One review claims
> that is so they don't clash with the video card. Some people
> don't like side mount ports.
> One reason I downloaded the MSI manual, was to check the PCI Express
> config.
> http://download2.msi.com/files/downloads/mnu_exe/E7581v1.0.zip
> One Two
> Video Video
> PCI_E2 ---- x16 x8
> PCI_E4 ---- x0 x8
> PCI_E5 ---- x4 x4
> The implication is, there must be the four chip PCI Express routing
> logic on the board somewhere. As I don't think the processor supports
> bifurcation on its own. The processor has a x16 interface, that can
> be split in two as x8/x8. Now, without external logic, the only wiring
> config it would have, is the right-most column. To be able to support
> both columns of that table, it would need some chips external to the
> PCI Express interface provided by Intel. The P45 chipset motherboards
> for LGA775 use the external chip scheme for steering the lanes. The
> reason they do this, is so they don't have to put an extra x8 of
> lanes on the big chips.
> Problem is, I can't identify the steering chips. It is possible they're
> using one bigger add-on chip, instead of the four smaller steering chips.
> Perhaps the bigger one has an overall lower cost. It could be hiding
> under a heatsink.
> If you install a single, high power video card in E2, you'll get a x16
> at 500MB/sec PCI Express revision 2.0 connection. That is 8GB per second,
> and since the PCI Express slot is connected to the processor, which also
> has the system memory, the only bottleneck is the speed of the memory
> itself. They should have plenty of room for a high bandwidth connection
> inside the processor.
> If you did use two video cards in E2 and E4, they'd be getting 4GB/sec
> max each.
> The E5 slot (don't know how they're counting these, I'm just going by
> the labels in the manual) would be connected to the Southbridge. They
> say it is x4 wired, but the bus bandwidth would come through the DMI
> connected to the processor. Your SATA drives would share bandwidth with
> the
> E5 slot. Again, not a big deal, but just to show how that one is
> connected.
> And that is why I like Gigabyte user manuals. They have an architecture
> diagram, that makes this guessing game easier :-) Gigabyte still chooses
> to obfuscate their diagram, but having some diagram to work with, saves
> time when checking out the design.
> Note that there are two heatsinks on the board, as if the board has
> a Northbridge and Southbridge. But there is only one chip in the
> chipset. That means the coolers are cooling a Southbridge and ???.
> The ??? could be the PCI Express x8 switch logic or something else.
> The heatpipe assembly on that board, seems to be fastened with
> rivets. If you ever feel the need to remove it, that will be
> a significant issue.
> This review doesn't go into architecture. And I bet the rivets
> prevent reviewers from getting too curious about what is underneath.
>
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article/2009/09/08/msi_p55gd80_motherboard_review/6
> The article here, says one of the heatpipe heatsinks doesn't cool a chip.
> Somehow, I don't believe that. I think they're hiding stuff under there.
> http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/852
> "No floppy disk drive controller is present."
> OK, if I look at a picture of the P55 block diagram, it does have
> more PCI Express lanes, but you can see that the DMI is a bottleneck
> to using all of them flat out at the same time. The x8 worth of
> subtending ports are PCIE Revision 2 at 500MB/sec. That is 4GB/sec
> max worth of wiring, that can't be supported by 1GB/sec worth of DMI.
> The four things connected to x1 ports in my diagram below, would likely
> use PCI Express revision 1, so that is 250MB/sec max. A video card
> plugged into PCI_E5 could attempt to run at 4x500MB/sec, but be
> bottlenecked back to whatever is left of the DMI bandwidth at any
> given time. (The PCI Express does transfers when it can, so none of
> that actually causes a failure. It just means that there could be
> bandwidth peaks, where occasionally the DMI is pretty busy.)
> http://i.afterdawn.com/storage/pictures/intel_p55_chipset_diagram.gif
> x8
> ----- x8 PCIE R2.0 ------------- PCI_E2 slot x16 x8
> /
> / x8
> Memory ---- CPU ----- x8 PCIE R2.0 --- switch
> | ??? \ x8
> | \
> | PCI_E4 slot x0 x8
> |
> |
> | DMI (1GB/sec up, 1GB/sec down - see Core i5 datasheet)
> |
> 6*SATA ---- P55 ----- X4 ----- PCI_E5
> PCI ---- (SB) ----- X1 ----- VT6315 Firewire
> ----- X1 ----- JMB363 ------------------------ ESATA
> ----- X1 ----- RTL8112DL --- Ethernet --- JMB322 ---
> 2*SATA
> ----- X1 ----- RTL8112DL --- Ethernet --- IDE
> One of the JMB363 SATA ports seems to connect to the JMB322, and the
> JMB322 makes two ports out of one port. The JMB322 ports are
> likely the vertical ones on the motherboard.
> Loads of fun.
> Paul
I did read the Anandtech article, and was deliberately trying to avoid the
Foxconn socket. In my inexperience, I just assumed I was looking to avoid
any motherboard made by Foxconn. There were a couple of other highly rated
LGA1156 boards at Newegg including an Asus, and a Gigabyte. I'll look into
them as well, and try to find who makes their cpu sockets.
Thanks, Roy
XML Sitemap
>>> RBM wrote:
>>>> The last machine I put together was built around an Asus P5AD2E board,
>>>> so It's been a while. I'd like to build a fairly basic, durable
>>>> machine, that will play recent games decently, and frankly, at this
>>>> point I'm clueless. It would be much appreciated if someone can point
>>>> me to a decent quality Intel based ATX board, cpu, ram, and NVIDIA
>>>> based graphics card that are compatible, decent for gaming, and won't
>>>> break the bank.
>>>>
>>>> TIA, Roy
>>> Well, you know that Intel has the high end. And you can see where AMD
>>> leaves
>>> off and Intel takes over, by using a benchmark chart of some sort.
>>>
>>>